Well-Trained Bible Study

parrothead* · Veteran Member

We Believe Chapter 1

MyLittleWonders · Member

:D Chucki! I have faith that this will be just fine.

Chapter 1 ...

First of all, I appreciate the CCC references; it will make further study easier. But, what stood out to me the most was on page 7 where he says, "And if believers have to answer the question, 'If God exists, why is there evil in the universe?' then nonbelievers much answer a far more difficult question, 'If there is no God, why is there good in the universe?'" It seems to basic, but honestly, I never thought of it that way. I have heard many times the argument that suffering, death, etc. is evidence that there is no God, because otherwise, how could one believe in a God that "allowed" bad things to happen (at least to "good" people). But, I have never heard anyone counter with the idea that if bad things are evidence of no God, then what does one do with good things ...

Chucki, I also appreciated the part where he spoke of our universe and its vastness and how given the size of our universe, it is hard to argue it all happened by chance. From page 8, "The more we know of the magnificence of the universe, the more we are drawn to believe that it must have a Master Architect to design it and a Creator to build it." Even in the years after walking away from our church and trying to leave God behind, I could not accept that we are here by sheer accident. There is simply too much beauty, too much uniqueness, too much vastness and too much attention to the most minute detail for this to be an accident. I really appreciate St. Thomas Aquinas's argument from contingency; something must have started everything else ... it's like someone must push the first domino down to start them all falling.

parrothead* · Veteran Member

Yes, Fr. L does make a good point. He gently allows one to have an ah-ha moment.

sayshell · Newbie

I didn't grow up in a religious home, but I always believed in God. I couldn't look at creation and think it all come from nothing. I have always thought of myself as blessed to have this belief because I know there are many people who have tried but just can't believe.

Clairelise · Member

Chucki, I'm sure you will do well leading us :)

The idea that the Catechism expresses ancient truths in modern language (page 5) was something we talked about briefly in RCIA.

I was having a hard struggle in a Bible-alone sort of faith community/church partially because no one could agree on what the truth was or allow for growth in understanding what the Bible meant. So there was constant fighting over things like creation, dispensationalism, music, modesty, celebration of Christmas, or whatever was the hot topic because if one only uses the Bible, it's very easy to make a verse mean what someone wants it to mean.

The Church recognizes it can grow in understanding the truth and how it is communicated to us without redefining it on the whim of a pastor or a majority vote of a congregation. I think it sees faith as a gift more than an achievement, too. That helped me a lot.

It is common to hear things like, "How could God exist if we have all this evil?" or hear that someone won't turn to Christianity because of a bad experience. To ask where the good and beautiful parts of life and the world came from was not something I'd given much thought to, although I've heard many people give themselves credit or say that good in the world is the result of nature and good people and not necessarily God.

So as I read that, I realized that (years ago) when I was very upset about some personal things that I saw as evil or sad, I didn't actually question God's existence so much as I got upset thinking my prayers were unanswered or that God just didn't care. I was not at all religious at the time and had been quite agnostic prior. Now I wonder what I would have said if someone had asked me to explain beauty and good in the world when I was agnostic.

Brianamouse · Veteran Member

I'm the same as you, Chucki with my reaction to the chapter. I know that I don't step back enough to realize the infinitenes of the universe that often, so when it's presented to me I have that Wow moment.

And I thought the,"How do you explain good in the world," was an excellent counterpoint to how is there evil in the world.

Whenever I think so broadly, though, like who made God and such, I DO have moments of doubt. But then I quickly realize that I would never want a life without God, so I go on from there. At least I'll get to ask when it's all said and done. wink

-- Edited by Brianamouse on Monday 16th of January 2012 11:18:48 AM

parrothead* · Veteran Member

Briana, I too have the same moment of doubt if I think too much about who made God. Then I realize that it doesn't really matter where God came from.

I do wonder if God has a Power Point presentation prepared for the end to answer all of our questions.

Brianamouse · Veteran Member

It's neat to see that the same parts of the book are having similar effects on all of us.

MyLittleWonders · Member

Brianamouse wrote:

Whenever I think so broadly, though, like who made God and such, I DO have moments of doubt. But then I quickly realize that I would never want a life without God, so I go on from there. At least I'll get to ask when it's all said and done.

-- Edited by Brianamouse on Monday 16th of January 2012 11:18:48 AM

Briana, I would never want a life without God either; I have tried ... when we (dh and I) walked away, I tried to throw it all away. I tried to read books to disprove God. I was hurt and frustrated and felt foolish for ever believing something as prepostorous as God, the Bible, Jesus, etc., that I wanted to be able to throw it all away. I am so thankful that He never let go of me no matter how much I tried to let go of Him. He gave me time and space, and allowed me to come back when I was ready. And I've realized after that time ... when my anxiety was high (it's very scary being the one in control of the entire universe, yk?) ... that I don't ever want to be without God again.

Clairelise · Member

I'm not doing well at all with quoting tonight, so I'll just say that I feel doubts quite a bit. I was probably agnostic most of my life before the last church I attended and after that one, I was going to walk away. Sayshell said "I always believed." I think that is a gift. For me, it was more that I had major doubts and acted like God didn't exist, but was never successful at believing the doubts. Maybe something about my baptism as a child and exposure to Catholicism growing up did something good for me and helped bring me back. The timing was right. I never, ever thought a conversation started at the WTM forum would help me this way or have an impact on me spiritually but the PMs and answers on threads that I got at the time I was searching was amazing. And I wasn't even looking for it.

MyLittleWonders · Member

Isn't it amazing what comes looking for you when you aren't looking for anything? I feel that way about finding my way home to the Catholic Church. I believe very strongly (and I hope it's not heretical to say) that the Blessed Virgin Mary had a lot to do with calling me back to her Son and to His Church.

dvdmt08 · Newbie

I like how Father L. so easily interweaves science and faith. You can have both, it doesn't have to be one or the other.

MyLittleWonders wrote:

Isn't it amazing what comes looking for you when you aren't looking for anything? I feel that way about finding my way home to the Catholic Church.

This is so true.

CleoQc · Newbie

Clairelise wrote:
I never, ever thought a conversation started at the WTM forum would help me this way or have an impact on me spiritually but the PMs and answers on threads that I got at the time I was searching was amazing. And I wasn't even looking for it.

Ah yes, the WTM effect.. Conversations over there have a way of impacting one's life beyond the screen. One of the few forums I've seen that actually did have that effect on me.

I started at WTM a total atheist (back when it was very conservative). I had to walk away often because it was so conservative, and against my innermost fiber. Then as the board became less 'legalistic', I became less atheist. And now I'm back in the Catholic Church. Go figure.

CleoQc · Newbie

dvdmt08 wrote:
I like how Father L. so easily interweaves science and faith. You can have both, it doesn't have to be one or the other.

This is especially refreshing when one's child is going through Apologia General Science where the Catholic Church gets bashed non-stop, especially at the beginning. It's nice to be able to name major scientists that were Catholic.

Clairelise · Member

I wasn't around when the WTM board was more conservative. But I was in a "legalistic" church and just needed time away from conversations about church after that. But it wasn't long after that I happened onto a conversation about Catholicism and found a thread where I was allowed to share my earlier thoughts of converting as a teen, the misconceptions I learned after that, and now I'm in RCIA. The only other forum that had any effect was one related to a hobby (not at all a religious board) and when I was still in a non-denom. place. Looking back, it's funny that one of my favorite posters from there was Catholic, which I only knew because and Evangelical kept asking questions and seemed intrigued that the Catholic sounded like a Christian.

I've been reading a book that has refreshed my idea about "religious" education and science/faith. It talks about how geometry, music, astronomy, and arithmetic relate to theology. Between this book and the one for the Bible study, I feel like the blanks from my time in various other lines of thought (from atheism to somewhat New Age to non-denominational-ism.) are starting to be filled in.

MyLittleWonders · Member

You can't mention a book that sounds that awesome without giving the title. ;)

Clairelise · Member

You are right, Brit. :) It is called Beauty for Truth's Sake: On the Re-enchantment of Education by Stratford Caldecott. I'm still working through it. Here's a quote:
"The 'purpose' of the quadrivium was to prepare us to contemplate God in an ordered fashion, to take delight in the source of all truth, beauty, and goodness, while the 'purpose' of the trivium was to prepare us for the quadrivium. The 'purpose' of the Liberal Arts is therefore to purify the soul, to discipline the attention so that it becomes capable of devotion to God, that is, prayer." He also mentions the quote, "Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth." -- Pope John Paul II, 1998

-- Edited by Clairelise on Tuesday 24th of January 2012 05:11:25 PM

MyLittleWonders · Member

Oh, that sounds too good not to get. :)

Clairelise · Member

MyLittleWonders wrote:
Oh, that sounds too good not to get. :)

I think it would go nicely with Leisure:The Basis of Culture by Josef Pieper, which I saw recommended on justamouse's blog. Caldecott quotes Pieper in Beauty For Truth's Sake.

Janette · Member

Life's been busy, so I'm coming in late here.

When I was very young, maybe seven and under, my parents were faithful Anglicans, and then something, to this day I do not know what, happened that caused them to leave the church. We still went to church for Christmas and Easter, and we still said we were Anglican, but that was the extent of our religion. My dad was very logical and scientific, always stressing the importance of science, and, as a teen, when I started getting interested in religion I wanted to make sure I didn't need to abandon science. I really didn't expect to find that harmony between faith and science in the Catholic Church, but I did. smile